posted by Mike Madison at 10:40 PM /
A few observations on the very long comment thread on the last post:
1. The number of anonymous comments is striking. Several commenters make direct or indirect reference to threats of retribution via increased assessments. Is there any evidence that Allegheny County assessments are manipulated to punish individuals for expressing their opinions? If there were, of course that would be a far more damning indictment of the real property tax system than the question of base years and market values.
2. Though the overall argument is a little muddied, people seem to be most upset about relative equity in the property tax system within the town, that is, about whether they are paying the same as their neighbors with comparable houses. The overall equity of Pennsylvania's property tax system, which allows wealthy communities to reward themselves with high quality public services and education, hasn't been put on the table. When I first moved to Mt. Lebanon, I was struck by the extent to which I could see my property taxes at work in the town. In California, that was rarely true; my property taxes went to the state capital, and from there they were to prison construction and highway rebuilding and, here and there, to public education. (Also, in California assessment differences between comparable properties were vastly greater than anything anyone has experienced in Mt. Lebanon, because of the effects of Proposition 13.) I wonder whether the visibility of Mt. Lebanon tax dollars at work has diminished, and whether that relative lack of visibility contributes to the sense that we aren't getting a proper return on our investment. Then again, I wonder what residents of some poorer Allegheny County communities would think of the complaining by Mt. Lebanon residents.
3. My property tax bill in Mt. Lebanon and Allegheny County is several times what my property tax bill was in California, on a house that is worth more or less what my California house was worth. However, my overall Pennsylvania tax burden (property plus income plus sales taxes) is much less than my overall California tax burden. For the anonymous commenters: how does your tax experience in Pennsylvania compare to your tax experience in other states?
1. The number of anonymous comments is striking. Several commenters make direct or indirect reference to threats of retribution via increased assessments. Is there any evidence that Allegheny County assessments are manipulated to punish individuals for expressing their opinions? If there were, of course that would be a far more damning indictment of the real property tax system than the question of base years and market values.
2. Though the overall argument is a little muddied, people seem to be most upset about relative equity in the property tax system within the town, that is, about whether they are paying the same as their neighbors with comparable houses. The overall equity of Pennsylvania's property tax system, which allows wealthy communities to reward themselves with high quality public services and education, hasn't been put on the table. When I first moved to Mt. Lebanon, I was struck by the extent to which I could see my property taxes at work in the town. In California, that was rarely true; my property taxes went to the state capital, and from there they were to prison construction and highway rebuilding and, here and there, to public education. (Also, in California assessment differences between comparable properties were vastly greater than anything anyone has experienced in Mt. Lebanon, because of the effects of Proposition 13.) I wonder whether the visibility of Mt. Lebanon tax dollars at work has diminished, and whether that relative lack of visibility contributes to the sense that we aren't getting a proper return on our investment. Then again, I wonder what residents of some poorer Allegheny County communities would think of the complaining by Mt. Lebanon residents.
3. My property tax bill in Mt. Lebanon and Allegheny County is several times what my property tax bill was in California, on a house that is worth more or less what my California house was worth. However, my overall Pennsylvania tax burden (property plus income plus sales taxes) is much less than my overall California tax burden. For the anonymous commenters: how does your tax experience in Pennsylvania compare to your tax experience in other states?
8 Comments:
For me, when I lived in another state, it was dramatically lower. However,I expect higher in Mt Lebanon because of the better schools.
My only complaint is the inequities here. I wouldn't mind paying $x.xx if my neighbor with the same house was paying $x.xx.
When I looked at houses, I saw people's lives being ruined (OK that may be too strong of a word) because they purchased their home from 2002 to 2005. They were taking a huge loss on their home because of the assessed value. I wouldn't even look at those houses when I could buy a house much nicer and save a good $200 a month in taxes at the same time.
I think the base year system will work, but it may take some time and some help from the School Board. In the long run, it will be for the best.
Nowhere else can you find a place this close to a town with this much character and these good schools, where a home would decrease in value from 2002-2006, during the biggest housing boom in history.
"Is there any evidence that Allegheny County assessments are manipulated to punish individuals for expressing their opinions?"
Well, evidence like that is tough to find. I will say that when all the commissioners and leaders all have 2002 base rates, even if they purchased their home after 2002, I would consider the system broke. If they can favor it one way, they can favor it another way.
Aside from college and graduate school, I have lived in Mt. Lebanon for most of my life. I know that Mt. Lebanon taxes are higher than those in:
Darien, CT
Long Island, NY
Rockville, MD
San Francisco
Seattle
As far as the quality of education in those areas, the North Shore of Long Island has good public schools and so does Rockville, MD. I am not really sure about the others.
My friend from the West Coast describes a similar tax situation to your original post. He also describes paying a very high "car tax".
I would love for the newly formed Mt. Lebanon Tax Commission to think outside the box. What if we had a "car tax" for every car over two that a family owns. Not many middle class families and retirees own 3 or more cars. This desire to be "green" could put Mt. Lebanon on the map and help attract young, hip residents.
At the recent high school renovation meeeting I sat at a table where we discussed the need for the new high school to be "green". (energy zones, solar heat, etc.) The irony was that my two friends who thought this was a great idea both drive big, gas guzzling SUV's. My one friend drives a Suburban and has only one child. It is her right to do that, and I am not trying to be judgmental, but being "green" can be accomplished throughout the day. What about a tax break for non-SUV drivers and a slight increase for SUV drivers. This would have to be a Mt. Lebanon tax, not a county tax.
I can see the marketing ads:
Come to clean, green, Mt. Lebanon!
In terms of property taxes alone, I'm sure that PA taxes are higher than, say, San Francisco taxes. But California has a state income tax that taxes at a much higher top marginal rate than PA's state income tax, which means that I paid much more tax in CA than I ever have in PA. (In my view, other state to state comparisons need to account for differences in marginal income tax rates.) California has a "car tax" in the sense that the state registration fee is very high. This money does not go to local municipalities; it is collected by the state. California also has no local income tax.
I don't know whether Mt. Lebanon has the authority to tax personal property. Some states grant that right to cities. When I lived in the Boston area, I was subject to a local *personal* property tax, which meant that I paid an annual tax to the local municipality based on the total value of my belongings. The tax applied to homeowners and renters alike.
My family and I moved back here from Austin, TX, in August. There was no state or local income tax. The sales tax there is slightly higher at 8.25%.
When we was there, I assumed that property tax rates were unusually high, because of the lack of income taxes. I had also heard that Austin's property taxes were higher than those in many other Texas communities. (Texas's tax structure is bizarre; we paid property tax to the city, county, school district, community college, and the "independent hospital district".)
However, when I apply MtL millage rates to my former Austin home's value ($165k), the tax bill is the same or higher. (I don't remember the exact amount we paid in Austin but it was no more than $5500).
I now live in Dormont, which actually has higher millage than MtL. If our assessed value comes somewhere near what we paid for the house, we'll certainly be paying more in total taxes here than we did in Texas, despite a less expensive house.
(Incidentally, Travis County, TX, is very aggressive about reassessing homes and trying to keep the assessed values at or above the market value.)
I grew up in Stamford, CT, right next door to Darien. Every CT citizen was subject to personal property taxes on autos, something between 1%-2% on approximate BlueBook value. The rate was, I believe, determined by the State, however, this tax was collected by the municipality.
I've lived and worked in NY, CT, MA, VA, PA and MX. The best tax situation by far was in Mexico ;-)
I haven't done the math as in the past 3-4 years I've paid taxes to three or four states including PA, but it certainly seems the overall tax bill here is a bigger percentage of earnings than anywhere else I've lived.
It may not all be in the bills you receive. Let's not forget that 18% Johnstown Flood Tax on every bottle of wine. Or the gas tax and sales tax. Or fees businesses pay for ridiculous things. Heck, even to own a dog requires city and county licenses.
One thing for sure: There's more government to pay for in PA than anywhere I've been.
I'm from Florida, now in Lebo. I'm paying twice as much for property taxes for a home that sold for half of what my house in Florida sold for.
Also, there was no state/local income taxes in Florida.
I think I am paying $1K per month more than in Florida.
But all the above doesn't bother me as much as all of the licenses and fees. It seems like P.A. cannot get out of the 50's. They still have the state run liquor store.....The emmissions fees, the little fees on insurance here and there, higher water/electric/gas taxes/fees, cable fees.
It is beyond belief that Allegheny Couny has money issues.
Re: "when we was there..."
That's what I get for haphazard editing. I is literate, really I is.
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