posted by Joe Polk at 9:23 PM /
As Mike mentioned in this post, a number of residents have been receiving anonymous letters in the mail because they have been posting signs in their yards stating "Support The Troops, End The War". The letters have not been addressed to the home owner specifically, but just sent to the address itself.
One of our Blog-Lebo readers provided me with a copy of the letter and I'd like to share the content of it. The text provided below is exactly how the letter was written:
To whom it may concern:
I am writing to you because of the signs you have in your yard, "Support the troops, End the War." These signs have been a discussion piece with my family and friends; we have decided this would be the most appropriate action. I would like to remind you of the events of September 11th and all the American lives that have been forever ruined. If you get a chance please visit ground zero or talk to a person who lost a loved one that day. Other terrorist attacks include the previous World Trade Center bombing, the attack on the U.S.S. Cole and United States Embassy's. Also recall the attacks in Spain and Europe. There is a group of very real people, Muslim Extremists who have declared a Jihad (holy war) on Christians, Jews, Mormons, and even Capitalists. They want to kill us, and have proven so with various acts. These terrorists consider themselves martyrs, which is why you see so many willing to die as suicide bombers. I consider it a tribute to the United States Military, that since 9/11 we haven't had another terrorist attack on American soil. The troops have protected our American way of life. I have several family and friends in the U.S. Army, and they want to be in Iraq and Afghanistan hunting down terrorists. The terrorists are not going to go away on their own!!! The current U.S. troops are fighting the way our grandfathers fought communists. Our grandparents so graciously gave us the opportunity to live in this beautiful country, and our generation is fighting terrorists to give our kids that same opportunity. Ending a war as you would like, will not stop, but will only allow terrorists to operate and kill more innocent people. The sign should read, "Stop the War, Support Terrorists." That is what it would be doing. I don't want any U.S. troops to get hurt or killed but their cause is worthy. Even liberal media stations have even recognized that 2007 has been a great year of progress in Iraq. I am asking you to take down these embarrassing signs that have no substance or logic behind them.
Merry Christmas,
Your neighbors in the Mt. Lebanon area
One of our Blog-Lebo readers provided me with a copy of the letter and I'd like to share the content of it. The text provided below is exactly how the letter was written:
To whom it may concern:
I am writing to you because of the signs you have in your yard, "Support the troops, End the War." These signs have been a discussion piece with my family and friends; we have decided this would be the most appropriate action. I would like to remind you of the events of September 11th and all the American lives that have been forever ruined. If you get a chance please visit ground zero or talk to a person who lost a loved one that day. Other terrorist attacks include the previous World Trade Center bombing, the attack on the U.S.S. Cole and United States Embassy's. Also recall the attacks in Spain and Europe. There is a group of very real people, Muslim Extremists who have declared a Jihad (holy war) on Christians, Jews, Mormons, and even Capitalists. They want to kill us, and have proven so with various acts. These terrorists consider themselves martyrs, which is why you see so many willing to die as suicide bombers. I consider it a tribute to the United States Military, that since 9/11 we haven't had another terrorist attack on American soil. The troops have protected our American way of life. I have several family and friends in the U.S. Army, and they want to be in Iraq and Afghanistan hunting down terrorists. The terrorists are not going to go away on their own!!! The current U.S. troops are fighting the way our grandfathers fought communists. Our grandparents so graciously gave us the opportunity to live in this beautiful country, and our generation is fighting terrorists to give our kids that same opportunity. Ending a war as you would like, will not stop, but will only allow terrorists to operate and kill more innocent people. The sign should read, "Stop the War, Support Terrorists." That is what it would be doing. I don't want any U.S. troops to get hurt or killed but their cause is worthy. Even liberal media stations have even recognized that 2007 has been a great year of progress in Iraq. I am asking you to take down these embarrassing signs that have no substance or logic behind them.
Merry Christmas,
Your neighbors in the Mt. Lebanon area
Labels: anonymous letter, iraq, troops, yard signs
31 Comments:
Oh man, I don't know what to say about this. Have these letters been sent out to only Mt Lebanon letters? Has it been sent to residents in other South Hills communities? Who could be behind such a thing?
At this point who would spend the time and energy into sending out these letters?
This is typical blind arrogance and disinformation! Many of us have talked to the families of the dead and visited ground zero. Moreover, they have marched carrying signs like; " No War in My ( Son's, Daughters, Wife's ...) Name! They have testified before congress and more.
I have a bring the troops sign in my yard. What sign do you have? Four more years of lies, deception, death and torture?
Change is in the air. No more industrial complex, oil driven, republican war mongering. Better Democrats are on the way !!!!
The authors of that letter are laboring under some pretty bad false impressions, but I don't see anything particularly threatening about the letter per se.
On the other hand, I find the anonymity quite repulsive. If someone has a problem with a sign in my yard they should come see me about it in person. I'd listen to them if they listen back. If I got an anonymous letter, my response would probably be to add more signs.
Although I totally DISAGREE with the content of the letter, I think it was a reasonable response to a sign the author did not agree with and wanted to get his views across non-confrontationally. Nothing wrong with free speech on either side of the issue. However the anonymity of it was cowardly.
C. Boady
Right-wing Desperation = Intimidation
Lately I have been noticing a trend here in the Keystone State. It seems that as support for bringing the troops home has grown, along with honorable disgust for those who perpetuate this colossal fiasco, the "brownshirts" who love Bush more than they care for the troops are becoming increasingly more desperate. Their desperation is making itself visible through cowardly acts of intimidation targeting those who truly support the troops and who demonstrate real patriotism.
http://criticaltorque.blogspot.com/2007/12/right-wing-desperation-intimidation.html
I wouldn't be shocked if these letters were a poor attempt at guerrilla marketing by a political campaign. There is a certain Iraq War supporter in the South Hills area who is up for re-election next year - could it be that his supporters are sending out these letters in the hopes of getting people to take those signs down before the election next year?
If it is isolated to Mt Lebanon I don't think this is the case, but if it extends throughout the South Hills and other communities don't be surprised if it is the work of some political group in our area.
On a completely unrelated note, I find it amazing that people will publicly share such strong, emotional opinions on a heated topic like this using their own names, but choose to debate municipal campaign spending or stem fees anonymously. Curious indeed.
The letter matches it's poor logic with a lack of basis in facts. I guess that's what watching Faux News will do to you.
Too bad that they didn't have the courage of their convictions to sign the letter. Perhaps deep down they really didn't believe what they were writing.
Anyone know how to get one of those signs? I would like to put one in my yard.
Maybe I too can get my complimentary crackpot letter...
To get a sign contact the mt. leb. democratic committee. Many members have them. I have a sign. It has been stolen and defaced a number of times. I have yet to receive this letter! The cowardice and interference with my free speech is a real insight into the tactics of these "citizens".
If anyone would like a sign, please feel free to contact me and I will do my best to get one to you. Joe has my e-mail address. I have a sign in my yard. My father fought and earned several medals in WWII fighting in the Pacific Theatre. He never understood why we were in Vietnam and I know that he would question our motives today. Additionally, I have had the sad personal experience of helping families cope when their son, daughter, brother, sister, mother or father died in Iraq. I am proud of these soldiers who gave the ultimate sacrifice. Their incredible courage and heroism is beyond words. I have the utmost respect for them and their families. It saddens me as I watch the numbers of deaths continue to grow. Maybe proportionately the number of deaths have decreased over time- when one is walking through the grief process with a deceased soldier's family, I find that information gives little comfort. I will continue to pray for peace and the safety of our young men and women. I will support our troops and continue to advocate for them to be brought home where they can again feel the love and warmth of their families and friends.
gina niewodowski
Gina personally knows six people who have been killed in Iraq? Wow! I have two sons who have served in Iraq, including one who is there now. I don't know anyone, including my sons who know six people killed in Iraq. My father served in WW II and received a number of medals and he knew exactly why I was in Viet Nam. There are many people who understand exactly why we are in Iraq, including the would be terrorists who are now being turned in by their own people, who have finally had enough. I sincerely hope that this war ends and that we never have to fight another war. Until then however, I will be thankful for those who are defending us. The fact that one can get this lawn sign from the Democratic party, I think says it all.
Mr. Cannon,
It appears you may have misinterpreted my comments. Any one person has many roles (i.e. that of a son, father, brother, etc.). I do know several people who have sacrificed their lives in Iraq. As I said in my original posting, I have the utmost respect for all the people in our armed services and their families. I also understand how people have difficulty (especially those who serve) fathoming how one can support our troops while being against the death and destruction that war brings. There seems to be a lot of misinformation about the war, i.e. that 9-11 justified attacking Iraq even though our president later stated that there was no evidence connecting Iraq to 9-11. The original post was started as a result of a group of people sending letters anonymously to those with yard signs (I know both democrats for the war and republicans strongly against it so party affiliation seems to be a red herring here). If you were one of the, or the author of that letter, the only thing I would question you, as well as any of the other writers, why send it anonymously? I commend your years of service to our country and thank you, your father and your sons. I hope you and your family are reunited and that our country can experience peace in the new year.
Respectfully,
gina niewodowski
I am a Marine Veteran of 14 years. (13 active duty).
I have a sign in my yard but have never seen Mr. Polk's letter before. And while the sign in my yard doesn’t say it as completely as I would like, the sentiment is there and in a complicated issue that comes down on many sides it shows that while I support the efforts of my brothers and sisters in arms, I believe that they are being placed in peril by those who, like the author or authors of the letter, see the world from only the convenience of their safe Mt. Lebanon home where the truth has to be dug out of a media that is now even more consolodated. The authors are writing from safety and ignorance, much as our President and Vice President have done in their lifetime. Those who enjoy the freedoms of America are many compared to the few who have fought for it. I would rather the sign read:
SUPPORT OUR TROOPS
VOTE OUT THE ILL INFORMED
AND ARROGANT
But that message is a bit too vitriolic for my Mt. Lebanon front yard.
The authors of the letter also missed some facts.
For the record. The president doesn’t declare war. Congress does, and they haven’t since World War II. There is a reason that we’ve let our president’s take the heat for police actions. Because a declared war, involves all of the people and the economy of the nation. Declaring a war would be devastating to our nation, our pork projects and would bring the global economy, which the United States supports, to its knees. Our shift to a service economy however will make this more feasible in the future as we’ll be buying our products and arms from others. That’s why I also think that HR 333 should be pushed forward. The tools that have been gathered by the executive branch since WW II have enabled the executive branch to place many in peril both at home and abroad. No matter the outcome of HR 333 a message would be sent to the Executive branch that "we the people" are watching. I am not saying that we didn’t gain from the police actions but when bullets are the method of diplomacy the collateral damage is not all paid for in blood. Our freedoms also are imperiled and each new president, republican or democrat in the office needs to be called to account for their actions and decisions. “We the people” re-elected the current occupants of the White House and while I agreed with all my heart that Desert Storm was the right thing to do to help topple a government that had been overthrown not by its people but by a church, Iraq was a mistake of the executive branch of our government and authorized by our congress. Neither of which should be allowed to forget their responsibility.
A “War on Terror” is a marketing tag line.
Also the total of Pennsylvanians who have given the greatest measure so far is 183. Gina may or may not know 6 people but unless your sons are stationed in Kurdistan or on their first tour they probably know of 6 or more people too who have given the last full measure for their country. And if they don’t then things are a lot better in the area they were or are in, and you should count your blessings.
We’ve got a lot of people over there now and it is our troops as soldier diplomats that have made the success we’ve seen. Not Ms. Rice or Dick Cheney or even George W. Bush. It’s the soldiers on the ground and with nearly half the population of Iraq displaced turning over people you don’t recognize gets easier too. Placing a bounty on the heads of everyone you turn over has also put a lot of innocent people in prison in a country where walking to work can put you in the way of friendly or enemy fire.
I’m sure with your service in Vietnam you know that while we never forget our fallen comrades, talking about them with others sometimes opens more wounds than answers questions. So that too is part of what we protect the folks back home from. I’ll bet you and your sons have buried friends that you don’t talk about. I know I do.
As for your comment about the Democratic Party being a source for troop support, we’d be happy to have you join us. Maybe you can help us make a better sign. A sign that people from both sides of an argument can come together on at least one thing. We want a safe return for our service people.
And maybe if you aren’t sure you know 6 people James, you should look through this list and call some friends.
List of Iraq/Afghanistan War Dead from Pennsylvania
The Morning Call Here are the Pennsylvanians and others with ties to the state who have died in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Names of those from the Lehigh Valley region are highlighted in bold.
Christopher S. Seifert, Williams Township
Joseph B. Maglione, Lansdale
Donald S. Oaks Jr., Harborcreek, Erie County
Tristan N. Aitken, State College
Stevon Booker, Apollo, Armstrong County
Michael B. Quinn, Tampa, Fla., formerly of Herndon, Northumberland County
Michael T. Gleason, Warren
Zachariah W. Long, Milton
Christopher D. Coffin, Kennebunk, Maine (married to Bethlehem native Betsy Coffin)
Christopher P. Geiger, Kreidersville
Corey L. Small, East Berlin, Adams County
Jaror C. Puello-Coronado, Pocono Summit
William J. Maher III, Yardley
Tim R. Brown Jr., Conway, Beaver County
Craig S. Ivory, Port Matilda, Centre County
Eric R. Hull, Uniontown
Rafael L. Navea, Pittsburgh
Anthony L. Sherman, Pottstown
Brian R. Faunce, Philadelphia
Andrew J. Baddick, Jim Thorpe
Christopher E. Cutchall, McConnellsburg, Fulton County
Tamarra J. Ramos, Haycock Township
Douglas J. Weismantle, Pittsburgh
David Bernstein, Phoenixville, Chester County
Maurice J. Johnson, Levittown
Ernest G. Bucklew, Enon Valley, Lawrence County
Nicholas A. Tomko, Pittsburgh
Joseph Minucci II, Richeyville, Washington County
Timothy L. Hayslett, Newville, Cumberland County
Kimberly A. Voelz, Carlisle, Cumberland County
Christopher A. Golby, Johnstown
William R. Sturges Jr., Spring Church, Armstrong County
Edward W. Brabazon, Bensalem
Clint R. Matthews, Bedford
Matthew J. Sandri, Shamokin, Northumberland County
Sean R. Mitchell, Youngsville, Warren County
Aric J. Barr, Allegheny
Jonathan R. Kephart, Oil City, Venango County
Edward W. Carman, McKeesport, Allegheny County
Sherwood Baker, Plymouth, Luzerne County
Martin W. Kondor, York
Ronald E. Baum, Hollidaysburg, Blair County
Bradley G. Kritzer, Irvona, Clearfield County
Carl F. Curran II, Union City, Erie County
Mark J. Kasecky, McKees Rocks, Allegheny County
Jeremy R. Horton, Erie
Bradli N. Coleman, Ford City, Armstrong County
Robert C. Scheetz Jr., Shamokin Township, Northumberland County
John H. Todd III, Bridgeport
Shawn M. Davies, Hopewell Township, Beaver County
Dale T. Lloyd, Watsontown, Northumberland County
Nicholas J. Zangara, Philadelphia
Neil A. Santoriello, Verona, Allegheny County
Nicholas B. Morrison, Carlisle, Cumberland County
Barton R. Humlhanz, Hellertown
Brandon E. Adams, Hollidaysburg, Blair County
Joshua J. Henry, Avonmore, Westmoreland County
Clifford L. Moxley Jr., New Castle, Lawrence County
Gregory A. Cox, Carmichaels, Greene County
Rodney A. Jones, Philadelphia
Andrew W. Brown, Pleasant Mount, Wayne County
Aaron J. Rusin, Johnstown
Mark P. Phelan, Salford Township
Lonny D. Wells, Vandergrift, Westmoreland County
Sean P. Huey, Fredericktown, Washington County
Joseph M. Nolan, Philadelphia
Michael R. Cohen, Jacobus, York County
Kyle J. Renehan, Oxford, Chester County
Paul D. Karpowich, Bridgeport
Michael J. Smith, Media, Delaware County
Brett D. Swank, Northumberland
Kyle J. Grimes, Bethlehem
Landon S. Giles, Indiana
Michael W. Franklin, Coudersport, Potter County
Matthew A. Koch, West Henrietta, N.Y. (Parkland High School graduate)
Brett M. Hershey, State College, Centre County
Michael A. Marzano, Greenville, Mercer County
Thor H. Ingraham, Murrysville, Westmoreland County
Kenneth E. Zeigler II, Dillsburg, York County
Andrew R. Jodon, Burnside Township, Clearfield County
Carl J. Morgain, Butler
Victor M. Cortes III, Erie
Robert T. Mininger, Hilltown Township
Louis E. Allen, Milford
Douglas E. Kashmer, Sharon, Mercer County
David J. Murray, Felixville, La., formerly of Philadelphia
Joshua P. Klinger, Williams Township
Robert E. Hall Jr., Pittsburgh
Joseph P. Goodrich, Allegheny
Ryan J. Kovacicek, Washington, Washington County
Nils G. Thompson, Confluence, Somerset County
Kurt Krout, Spinnerstown
Brahim Jeffcoat, Philadelphia
Gennaro Pellegrini Jr., Philadelphia
John Kulick, Jenkintown
Nathaniel DeTample, Morrisville
Francis J. Straub Jr., Philadelphia
Ryan S. Ostrom, Williamsport
Jeremy M. Campbell, Middlebury, Tioga County
William L. Evans, Hallstead, Susquehanna County
Michael Egan, Philadelphia
William Fernandez, Reading
Daniel L. Arnold, Montrose, Susquehanna County
George A. Pugliese, Carbondale, Lackawanna County
Oliver J. Brown, Carbondale
Eric W. Slebodnik, Greenfield Township, Lackawanna County
Lee A. Wiegand, Hallstead
Patrick B. Kenny, Pittsburgh
Jason L. Frye, Landisburg, Perry County
Troy S. Ezernack, Lancaster
Steven W. Szwydek, Warfordsburg, Fulton County
Daniel R. Lightner Jr., Hollidaysburg
Jeffrey P. Toczylowski, Upper Moreland Township, Montgomery County
Dylan R. Paytas, Freedom, Beaver County
Brent A. Adams, West View, Allegheny County
Keith A. Bennett, Holtwood, Lancaster County
Michael J. Cleary, Dallas, Luzerne County
Michael E. McLaughlin, Mercer, Mercer County
Albert P. Gettings, New Castle, Lawrence County
John T. Fralish, New Kensington, Westmoreland County
James F. Fordyce, Newtown Square, Delaware County
Jonathan E. McColley, Gettysburg
Bryan D. Willard, Hummelstown, Dauphin County
Randy D. McCaulley, Marion Center, Indiana County
Frederick A. Carlson, Bethlehem
Jacob W. Beisel, Lackawaxen, Pike County
Eric A. McIntosh, Trafford, Westmoreland and Allegheny counties
Mark W. Melcher, Bethel Park, Allegheny County
Travis C. Zimmerman, New Berlinville
Brandon M. Hardy, Cochranville, Chester County
David M. Veverka, Jamestown, Mercer County
Stephen P. Snowberger III, Lopez, Sullivan County
Adam C. Conboy, Philadelphia
Steven Freund, Pleasant Hills
Robert A. Seidel III, Gettysburg
Thomas D. Maholic, Bradford, McKean County
Scott R. Smith, Punxsutawney, Jefferson County
Christopher C. Rafferty, Brownsville, Fayette County
Jason M. West, Pittsburgh
Tristan C. Smith, Bryn Athyn, Montgomery County
Justin W. Dreese, Northumberland
John A. Carroll, Pittsburgh
Jennifer M. Hartman, New Ringgold
Allan R. Bevington, Beaver Falls, Beaver County
Carl W. Johnson II, Philadelphia
Shelby J. Feniell, Connellsville, Fayette County
Joseph M. Kane, Darby, Delaware County
Timothy J. Lauer, Saegertown, Crawford County
Russell Culbertson Jr., Lone Pine, Washington County
Christopher E. Loudon, Brockport, Elk County
Daniel A. Brozovich, Greenville, Mercer County
Tony L. Knier, Sabinsville, Tioga County
John R. Priestner, Le Raysville, Bradford County
Ross A. McGinnis, Knox
Brent W. Dunkleberger, New Bloomfield, Perry County
Albert N. Nelson, Philadelphia
John T. Bubeck, Collegeville, Montgomery County
Keith A. Callahan, McClure
Roger A. Napper, Greensburg, Westmoreland County
Mark T. Resh, Lowhill Township
Brandon J. Van Parys, Lynn Township
Russell A. Kurtz, Bethel Park, Allegheny County
Matthew C. Bowe, Coraopolis, Allegheny County
Todd M. Siebert, Baden, Beaver County
Wesley J. Williams, Philadelphia
Luis O. Rodriguez-Contreras, Allentown
Ashly L. Moyer, Emmaus
Dennis J. Veater, Jessup, Lackawanna County
Jason Nunez, Naranjito, Puerto Rico (born in Fountain Hill)
Orlando E. Gonzalez, New Freedom, York County
Curtis J. Forshey, Hollidaysburg, Blair County
Sean M. Thomas, Harrisburg
Jason A. Shaffer, Derry, Westmoreland County
Aaron M. Genevie, Chambersburg, Cumberland County
Steven R. Tudor, Watertown, N.Y. (graduate of Dunmore High School, Lackawanna County)
Jeremy E. Maresh, Penn Forest Township
Travis L. Manion, Doylestown Township
Colby J. Umbrell, Doylestown Township
Allen J. Dunckley, Yardley, Bucks County
Arthur L. Lilley, Smithfield
Larry Parks Jr., Altoona
Raymond R. Buchan, Johnstown
Zachary R. Clouser, Dover, York County
Compiled by librarian Dianne Knauss from U.S. Department of Defense, staff and wire reports
Copyright © 2007, The Morning Call
http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-padead,0,1010739,email.htmlstory
Mr. Cannon,
I have the utmost respect for you and your family's service and sacrifices for our country. I respectfully disagree with your logic.
Even respected military leaders such as Colin Powell have come out and admitted that their assessment of Iraq was wrong and that being there is a mistake. In military terms, we never demonstrated the 'causus belli' for being there in the first place. Being a military man you of course recognize that that means we can sustain neither the political or military will to win in that case.
While I think the war in Afghanistan made sense as a matter of national defense. The war in Iraq has been proven time and again to be based on erroneous premises and some cases an outright lie. I have the utmost respect for our men and women who serve this country--so much so that I am willing to stand up for them and protest when they are not allowed to do so themselves.
I think protesting your governments actions while supporting your fellow citizen-soldiers is HIGHLY patriotic. I think turning a blind eye to an immoral and illegal war simply because the president says so, is wrong. That is not fulfilling our duty as citizens.
Again, thank you for your service. Please don't confuse dissent with disloyalty.
"To sin by silence when we should protest makes cowards of men."
--Abraham Lincoln
Just wanted to clarify something based on Bob Lee's comment. I did not receive an anonymous letter. I was provided with a copy of the letter that someone else received.
Sorry Joe I stand corrected. I guess the thread of these letters was someone told Mike that they received one and you asked for a copy to post for people to comment on.
I'd like to thank you and Mike for allowing some transparency to the going's on in Mt Lebanon. Even the less distastfull ones. It's one more thing that makes this such a great tight knit community. even when we're arguing.
In re-reading the string of comments I wanted to come back to the exchange between James Cannon and Gina.
Mr. Cannon, I am struck by your response. Gina is a professional counselor and has personally helped families grieving from the loss of loved ones. Rather than thank her for the noble and patriotic service that she is providing, you chose to MOCK it and doubt it????
What code of Judeo-Christian morals are you exemplifying when you doubt someone who is tending to those need?
Just because you disagree with her opinion doesn't mean you should doubt her service any more than any of us would doubt yours or your sons.
Although I don't believe that an anonymous letter is the right way to address these sign holders, I do have an axe to grind with the sign holders. I personally feel that the sign holders are hiding behind the troops in order to state their message about ending the war. If you want to "end the war" then have a sign that says only that, but leave the troops out of your message. I have a son that is being deployed to Iraq in February, and I don't find these signs very supportive of my son or any of the troops. If you really want to support the troops, then maybe you should look into the many organizations (i.e. Operation Helmet, Soldiers' Angels, and many more) that really support the troops!
The "B Fisher" who submitted the last comment is Bruce Fisher, who gave me permission to confirm his name in connection with posting his comment.
Mike
Mr. Fisher, as I have previously stated, no disrespect is intended. It may be of interest to learn that one of the people distributing these signs is a veteran of Operation Iraqi Freedom.
gina niewodowski
Bruce,
I don't see it as "hiding behind the troops." I see it as saying exactly what it says--We support the troops and want to end the war.
People displaying that sign clearly care about service people--many of whom are our friends and neighbors. I have four close friends serving there right now. I would like nothing more than for them to come home as soon as possible.
I don't agree with this war. It is illegal and immoral. I don't believe in blindly supporting this president's folly and let my friends get killed because the president isn't adult enough to admit he made a mistake.
Also consider this: In the past, any attempts to disagree with this president regarding Iraq have routinely been positioned by he and Karl Rove as "not supporting the troops." So it is not enough to say "End the War" because Bush will say you are not supporting the troops, as he has done in the numerous times in the past.
But let me ask you this, is it truly 'supporting' the troops to keep them in the middle of a war under false pretenses? Keep in mind, this is the same administration that didn't give them the proper equipment, didn't give them the number of troops they requested, cut the budget for rehab at the VA, and eliminated hazard pay just before the shooting started. Is this what it means to support the troops?
Gina, I did not suggest that I disrespected any owners of the "End of War" signs, so I obviously understand that there was no disrespect intended by you or others. My original comment is the result of feeling that the majority of our troops would like to finish their task at hand and end this war on their terms.
Mr. Nolan, I don't have any reason to think that you and others (with these signs) don't care about the troops. However, you need to know that I'm not the only person who thinks that your primary reason for displaying these signs is to voice your opinion about the Bush Administration and "Ending the War," and the troops are a secondary reason. Your response to me suggested that my perception just might be correct.
Finally, my initial (December 31) comments were from my heart, (they had nothing to do with George Bush or Karl Rove) and they represented my personal feelings about our troops. I'm not sure how your friends feel about their roles in Iraq, but I know that my son feels that it is his turn to go to Iraq, and fulfill his responsibilities as a member of the military. I don't think his feelings are unusual among the troops and I'm certain that the majority of our troops feel the same way. I feel that these outstanding young men and women want the opportunity to serve their country and meet their objectives in Iraq, which has been the primary influence for my feelings about these signs.
I do hope and pray that your friends in Iraq and my son all return safely from their mission!
Bruce,
Likewise, I pray for your son's safe return and honor him for his service.
I have no doubt about the sincerity of the soldiers wanting to complete their mission. For me it truly is about coming to the defense of our citizen soldiers who have been ordered to invade and occupy a country under false pretenses. They never should have been placed in that situation and I see it as our responsibility as citizens to stand up for our soldiers. Their code doesn't allow them to question or disagree with politicians.
This isn't a sneaky way to get at Bush, it's about standing up for our fellow citizens.
Incidentally, I've never heard anyone in this administration articulate clear objectives. It has always been very vague and open-ended. How will our soldiers know when their mission is truly "accomplished"? I think it is irresponsible to put honorable soldiers into that situation.
I've been reluctant to engage in this discussion. Of course, no one wants to see good people (whether they be friends, family members or complete strangers) put into harm's way. And of course, we would all like to see this conflict resolved quickly and efficiently.
However, I am left with one very specific question for everyone - Republicans and Democrats, supporters and objectors alike. Specifically, what is the solution?
Stated differently, if you were the President, what would you do?
Bruce, Tim, Gina, Dave,
We're all on the same side and same page now it seems to me.
Having served during my 14 years two fleet Commands, I know that the command and logistics folks will have multiple strategies for the arena where as Chesty Puller said it, "you can advance to the rear". The fact is even if the President doesn't have an exit strategy any military commander worth a flack jacket will have at least one.
To answer Dave's question if I were the commander in chief what I'd do is tell my theater commander to bring them home. Then I'd get the hell out of the way. And I'd take my political lumps from those who felt differntly. I'd Probably retire and write a book. I'd also advocate for the vast majority of American's to get off their sofa's and get involved in the body politic of this country.
People in both parties are jumping up and down over the doubling of the number of people who showed up in Iowa. But even with a doubling of the numbers they only represented 12% of the voters in the state. And that's just the registered voters! Where the heck is the other 88%?
If you want to honor those who are in harm's way. Encourage your neighbors, your co-workers, your friends and your family to vote. You can bet that the absentee ballots comming from Afghanastan and Iraq will be better gaurded than Dick Cheney. Let's show the rest of America that the state where it all started still gives a hoot about democracy.
Everyone who's posted on this topic has a right to be upset. But we all agree that the safety of our fellow American's is paramount.
Here's something else for us all to get upset about. And Bruce like your admonition of the other agencies you can make a difference here too.
The one thing I'd do if I broght the troops home that will be difficult for over 200,000 veterans and growing every day is sleep peacfully at night under a roof instead of a bridge.
According to the National Coalition for Homeless, Veterans are the fastest growing group of homeless in this country and account for nearly 25%. The numbers are difficult to pin down but you can check with the VA as well as do a google search. If you're really feeling adventurous you can open your home.
Why does this happen? Recruiting from poor neighborhoods and the unique medical problems of returning veterans are a causal factor for increasing this number.
Dave, I wish I was the Commander in Chief. If only long enough to bring them home so they can get on with thier lives.
Semper Fi
I usually ignore debates when fueled by ignorance and personal agendas. And frankly, I don’t visit this site often. It’s usually the same five people commenting. But for some reason, I ended up here a couple weeks ago and noticed the posting about the yard signs. Then I saw my father had posted something. When it gets to that point, I am compelled to speak up.
For the record, since it seems so important, I knew many more than six guys who were killed. Also, the list of Pennsylvania KIA is incomplete. Do your research before touting your conclusions.
A former Marine myself, I joined an Army reserve unit in 2005. My sole motivation for doing so was to deploy to Iraq. I felt the debate in our country had reached something of a stalemate due to politics trumping sense. Yes, I supported the invasion based on what I was told. And really folks, was it so implausible to believe Saddam was trying to obtain uranium? He surely felt emboldened after surviving a Clinton administration that did absolutely nothing—zero—to combat terrorism. Couple that with the fact that the opposition to the case being made was coming from Joe Wilson, a low level lackey whose hands-on diplomatic experience would fit on a pencil eraser. So yes, in 2003, I was a believer. I had a hell of a lot more faith in the President than I did in those opposed to the whole idea of toppling a dictator.
So I went to Iraq. My three-man team was attached to various infantry units. Where they went, we went. What they did, we did. Our tour started in April 2006 and ended April 2007. As some of you may recall, during the summer and fall of 2006, there was a lot of discussion domestically regarding a possible pull-out. Our troops were being killed at alarming rates, little visible progress was being made and options were few and unpopular. The troop surge was put in place in early 2007 and we are now seeing the results. Former militia members are acting as security forces. The Iraqi army, though still woefully inadequate, is making strides and taking on great roles in operations. Violence is down and U.S. casualties have dropped. The point is a situation like Iraq takes time. And the American public has such a short attention span that anything longer than a year is now defined as a quagmire (except Bosnia, Korea, Japan, Germany, Cuba, Kuwait and anywhere else we still have troops).
Now, specific to this post regarding signs, I think they’re disrespectful. They are, whether you admit it or not, just another means of political, not personal, expression. And in this case, it is a subtle way of portraying members of the military as just poor victims, unable to think for themselves and incapable of making decisions. “Well, I support the troops but I don’t support the war.” That’s kind of like saying to your kid, “I support that fact you’re employed but I just don’t support that you work in a hardware store.” Uh…gee, Dad, thanks for the vote of confidence. Now stop patting me on the head. And honestly, why is it so important to you that anyone who drives by knows how you feel? Do we really have to be exposed to your personal opinion? should I start putting signs in my yard that say "Love the Roast, Hate the Gravy"? Seriously...
You would be amazed by how many young Americans make the choice to reenlist while in Iraq. And contrary to the tired old lines about the military being comprised of dumb black kids from the inner city who have no other options, there are a lot of very bright young people in the military of all races and demographics (and if any of you actually looked into it, you’d be shocked to discover there really aren’t that many blacks in the military, in any branch). The smart young folks are a good portion of those choosing to serve more time. It’s not because they have no other options. It’s because they want to. Get that through your collective heads—the troops don’t need or want spokespeople. They are capable of making the choice and many choose to keep doing their job.
This is not to say I don’t support free speech. Certainly citizens should never hesitate from exercising the rights spelled out by our nation’s founders, even if it is some dopey sign. But with rights come responsibilities. Think before you act. I mean, any of you displaying the signs—did you honestly not wonder if maybe the signs would have the opposite intended effect? Did you ever think about what kinds of thoughts they would elicit, or was that the point? (And seriously, some of the comments on this post are downright silly. I read, “no more industrial complex, oil-driven, republican war mongering” and started laughing. How trite. Did that come from The Idiot’s Guide to Marxism? And you need to remember that Democrats have, for the last six years, given tacit approval to the Iraq and Afghanistan campaigns by voting in favor of various funding measures. This isn’t a “Republican” conflict, it’s a U.S. conflict. And as educated as I am, I still don’t what communists mean when they say “industrial complex” when referring to wars. Then there’s the illegal and immoral bit. Morality is completely subjective so you’re wrong on that point. The legality of the Iraq situation I think has been pretty much decided since we’re still there. Use some sense.)
Also, those of you who don’t know anyone personally involved in this conflict are usually the ones wailing the loudest. It’s easy to take a stand from a distance. Keep that in mind next time you're planting a sign in your yard. Before you pat yourself on the back for staging your own little jihad of Bush-bashing, remember there are guys like me out there facing the reality of Iraq.
What I find disturbing and sad is there a running theme within these comments. Somehow if someone is supportive of the troops AND what they do, they are “brownshirts” or thugs or whatever dumb moniker the leftist websites are putting out this week. Since when is it unpatriotic to be in support of a military triumph? And does that make me a thug? I dare you to affix a label to me like nazi or bully or something else insulting. It doesn’t matter how we got there, it doesn’t matter why we are there. What matters is the next step. If all you do is carp and push your political views, it stalls things. Come up with solutions instead of complaints and we might just able to end this.
If any of you would like a first-hand account of my time or an education of what actually occurs on the ground, let me know. I have no problem passing along facts to those who seek them. All I ask is you keep the politics out of it.
"JE Cannon" is James Cannon, not to be confused with his father James Cannon, who posted an earlier comment on this thread.
James/JE Cannon gave me permission to clarify this.
Mike
Mr. Cannon (JE)
Thank you for your continued service. You said a great deal so I will try to be brief in my response:
1. Yes it is implausible that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc. believed that Saddam was trying to buy uranium because they were told directly by George Tenet that the reports of such were bogus. Beyond that they had no evidence--zilch re WMD. They guessed based on unsubstantiated reports from ONE source--"Curveball".
2. True, Bill Clinton could have done more to fight terrorism, but that doesn't mean he did nothing. I seem to recall that when launched missile strikes on Al Qaeda sites in Afghanistan, a certain political party accused him of "wagging the dog". The Clinton Admin spent more money and dedicated more assets to anti-terrorism than the previous three administrations combined, and more than the current admin until 9/11 occurred. Under Clinton, JTTF and TTIC was created and the Dept of Homeland Security was first proposed (Bush shelved it until 9/11). When the Clinton Admin left office, they specifically warned Bush that the number one threat facing the U.S., was from Islamic fundamentalist terrorists. The Bush Admin ignored the warning for 9 months until 9/11 occurred [See 9/11 Commission Report, War In a Time of Peace by David Halberstam, and Against All Enemies by Richard Clarke, Ghost Wars by Steve Coll, See No Evil by Bob Baer]. Either way, how does that justify Iraq?
2. All troops are not victims but all service people deserve better than what this administration has provided.
3. Our invasion is in fact illegal. We have no legal basis for being there. The reasons that were cited for our invasion have proven false, and what's worse, it is now documented that the President and Vice President knew they were false before we went in.
4. Whether you agree or not, I feel strongly in supporting men such as yourself who dedicate their lives to our country; and also feel that as citizens it is cowardly to stay mum when you don't agree with the actions of your government. As soldiers, you have to do what your civilian and military leaders order you to do. It's not that you can't think for yourselves about your choice to enlist. It's that once you are in, you can't disagree with the decisions of your leaders without facing dire personal consequences. For civvies like me, it is my responsibility to hold the civilian leadership accountable for their decisions. In my opinion, doing otherwise is cowardly behavior.
5. You say you are not against free speech but in the same sentence suggest just the opposite. What's wrong with sharing personal views, political views, or any views for that matter. It's part of dialog. People aren't putting up these signs in some feeble attempt to lower Bush's approval rating. They're doing it to a take a stand for what they believe in. It's not like their putting up signs that say, "Go Al Qaeda!" If you believe that you are trying too hard to miss the point.
6. I don't think you are a thug or a brownshirt. I don't see that as a running theme in any of these posts. Please point out which ones lead you to this conclusion.
7. "Military Industrial Complex" is a term popularized by Dwight Eisenhower during his farewell address to the nation. He warned America that the emergence of a powerful military establishment, coupled with large industrial companies who depend upon the military to buy lots of stuff, will change our democracy whether we like it or not. Guess what--he was right! As former Supreme Allied Commander I think he knew what he was talking about. I believe in having a very strong and capable national defense, but there are a whole bunch of people making alot of money on this war, and they can influence politicians with their money. That changes our democracy.
8. If you're upset that Bob Lee missed some names on his listing, I urge you to correct the error by adding the names he missed. You might also consider that Bob was honoring those individuals, so rather than blast him for it, you could just say, "Good on ya! Here are a few more names you missed."
9. You're right: Many Dems and Reps continually vote to continue funding the war in Iraq, and I find that shameful. I wish there were more Senators like Chuck Hagel, John Murtha, or Russ Feingold who are willing to take a politically risky stand. Realistically speaking though, the way the bills are structured leaves them the untenable choice of either funding or not funding troops on the ground.
10. My solution: Get out of Iraq in an orderly and expeditious withdrawl much as Bob Lee described. Like it or not, we are not going to democratize the Middle East.
11. I'm not your enemy. I mean you no disrespect. I sincerely want you to come home safely and sincerely admire your service. My wish is that your service in Iraq was not necessary, and that you could serve nobly in another situation. Clearly we disagree on the need to be in Iraq. I'm not naive either. I have studied this situation a great deal and have come to what I feel is a reasonable and patriotic conclusion. We may not agree on many matters, but that is no reason to stifle dialogue.
JE,
First and foremost, thanks for your service in Iraq. Next, I am glad that you didn't ignore this debate, since you confirmed many of my own positive thoughts about our troops, and the negative feelings that I have about these signs!
Bringing the discussion back to the original post, where is the courage in sending anonymouse letters? The sign holders are relinquishing their anonymity when they place signs in their yards. Why are the letter writers afraid to sign their names? The soldiers we all support (yes, believe it or not!) are putting themselves on the line (and I do know many both living and sadly deceased). The displayers of the signs do not want to see any more of our people killed..yet the writers of the letters do not have the courage to sign their names? I am totally perplexed and wish the person or people who wrote the letters would explain this. Also, for anyone who wants regularly updated information about casualties as that seemed to be a bone of contention in some of the comments, I am including an address to a link which provides this: http://casualties.org/oif/.
I appreciate your reply but obviously disagree with most of it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if it’s wrong. Though my intent was not to delve into a long protracted debate, I will attempt to respond as best I can.
1. You state that George Tenet had told the President there was no indication of Saddam attempting to acquire uranium so the administration should have listened. Um...they should have based a major foreign policy decision on the word of George Tenet? So Tenet’s word is gospel? And the CIA is 100 percent accurate and honest? Their intelligence is never wrong? I’m missing something here. You and the other liberals in this country seem to be very selective when making arguments. You’re basically saying the CIA had the best intel on Iraq in 2002/2003. I find that hard to believe when they ADMITTED they had no reliable human sources on the ground there. So George Tenet essentially said “Well, he can’t be looking for uranium because we haven’t heard about it.” It doesn’t fly. And are you forgetting that Saddam had already attempted a nuclear program once before?
2. I will reassert that Bill Clinton did NOTHING to combat terrorism. In fact, I would go so far as to say he helped embolden the terrorists. Are you familiar with the documented and proven tale of Clinton turning down Osama Bin Laden? He said he wouldn’t take him in the U.S. because he had broken no law here. What cowardice. And you seem to be ignoring the first WTC attack, Khobar Towers, the USS Cole, the embassy bombings...What exactly was his response to each incident? Deafening silence. And of course there was more money spent on counterterrorism during his administration. His lack of action made it necessary to find other ways to protect our country. Didn’t work out so well in hindsight. As for the Bush administration ignoring the “warnings”, go back and read what the warnings said. They were so vague and nondescript I would defy anyone to have crafted a response based on the reports. It basically said (for those of you who don’t like to research) “some time in the future, terrorists may use an airliner as a missile.” Huh. Damn Bush for not being clairvoyant. I mean, that’s really the only reason I voted for him. Twice. Clinton actually had terrorists committing acts and he chose to do nothing, except a young intern (Yeah, that was a low blow... Whoops, there I go again.)
3. Service people deserve better? How would you know?
4. Again, if our presence in Iraq is illegal, go file suit. But I’m reasonably certain that having a majority of the lawmakers in this country vote in favor of the action would put it in the ballpark of being legal.
5. I completely agree that the citizenry is charged with holding elected officials accountable. Absolutely. I disagree slightly, though, with your assertion that people in the military can’t disagree with the decisions of their leaders. As a Marine I was trained to be inquisitive and try to find the reason behind any decision. In theory that would make me a better leader later in the military. I brought that kind of thinking to the Army and was surprised by how far behind the curve I was. A lot of decisions are questioned. This isn’t the 1950s. Our military is a bit more fluid now and recognizes that input from multiple levels can prove beneficial. Innovations in tactics come from the ground up, the lower enlisted. They’re the ones out there practicing those tactics. As a result, a lot of the strategy currently employed in Iraq and Afghanistan is an indirect result of young platoon leaders openly questioning why things are done a certain way. Now, I suspect you were referring to the big picture, the decisions of the President. You are correct that it is not open season on executive decisions. Members of the military recognize that. Why do you think the ranks thinned so precipitously during the Clinton years? People just couldn’t take it.
6. I did say I support free speech and at no time made an opposite point. What you’re thinking about is my question about the signs. Again, why do I have to be aware of your personal opinions in the public arena? You say it is dialog. No, it’s not. Dialog suggests a give and take. When you put a sign in your yard, that’s pretty much one-sided. And that isn’t a disagreement with free speech, it’s an issue with people subtly shoving their opinion in my face. I don’t need it, I don’t want it and I don’t like it. It’s not like a radio that I can turn off or a television where I can change the channel.
7. Got the thing with Ike. I actually looked it up today. It was a tiny little obscure reference in a speech he gave. Those words were lifted out and made popular by someone else. And you’re right, there are people making money on the war. So what. If it weren’t for some of the companies—Lockheed, Boeing, etc—our military wouldn’t have the technical advances it does today. I have no problem with companies profiting from this war as long as they derive those profits from helping our troops.
8. You summed up your political affiliation by mentioning three politicians. Were those three tossed out of office today, our country would be a better place. As for the funding issues and the way the bills are written, not my problem. If you really believe in what you’re saying, then action speaks louder than the words you type. Contact them and tell them to actually make a stand. What’s more important, their beliefs or their careers? (Okay, that was more rhetorical. I think we can all agree that Dem or Repub, it’s an easy question to answer)
9. The notion of withdrawl makes for great sound bites and cute slogans. But then there’s reality. If we pull out, there will be mass killings. That is a fact, not a theory or just a pessimistic outlook. It will happen. So when I see someone like Obama get on a stage and state boldly he’ll pull all the troops out the minute he’s elected, my dinner comes back up my throat. Does he really want to be the one responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqis in a very short time? It astounds me. And as much as Hillary makes my skin crawl, she’s the only one who is adhering to the reality of the situation on the ground in Iraq. She has not said she would pull the troops out. That is the correct answer. She knows it isn’t realistic. And she’s also covering her behind. One of the most irritating things to emerge from the Iraq situation are the armchair generals. Imagine all the people in our country who have “the” answer for Iraq and yet none of them are employed by the Defense Department. Maybe their aren’t openings or maybe someone has already run through those plans and they won’t work.
10. No, we will not democratize the Middle East. But let’s be frank here. For almost three decades, the world has watched as the Middle East has been a nest for terrorists. And the world has done nothing. Somebody needed to take a stand, get in the fight and bloody the nose of the radical Muslims. So you’re upset with Bush for being the first. Were we supposed to sit idly by and take another eight years of unanswered hits? I don’t think our goal ever was democracy. If so, then yes, we’ve failed miserably. Though I have no facts to support it, I believe our goal was very simple—pick one of the bullies on the playground and beat the hell out of him to send a message.
Mr. Nolan, I know you are not my enemy. And I will always listen to opposing viewpoints. I would be the first one to keep detractors at bay to ensure you had the opportunity and right to say whatever you like. But specific to Iraq, I think I have a good handle on it. You may also be surprised to learn there are a lot of troops currently there who feel the same way you do on many points. However, they are there to do a job, some by choice, others by orders. Let them do it. Give them a chance to complete this thing, whatever it turns out to be. And think about the Iraqis. Most of them are just regular people who want to get up, go to work, feed their family and live to see another day. Their only hope for that to happen is our military’s presence.
As for Gina’s comments, I agree. If you’re going to have strong convictions, then have the courage to stand by them. Any moron can send something at random but it will have little effect unless a name is associated with it. I would be curious to know who sent the letters and find out how deep their involvement is in the war.
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